Exploring Beanies in Skateboarding Culture: History and Impact
Intro
Exploring the dynamic world of skateboarding brings many elements to light, but few accessories hold as much cultural weight as the beanie. This seemingly simple headpiece has transcended its role from mere protection against cold and wind to a vital signifier of identity within the skateboarding community. By examining the history, styles, and practical applications of beanies, we find that they fulfill a deeper purpose—one that intertwines fashion, functionality, and personal expression.
Skateboarders often wear beanies not just for warmth but as a statement of style. The evolution of beanies has paralleled the growth of skate culture itself, showcasing trends that change with each generation of skaters. In this guide, we will delve into various aspects surrounding the role of beanies, shedding light on how these accessories interact with broader urban lifestyles and identity. From community events where bolder styles see the light to the underground influences shaping these trends, our journey into beanie culture in skateboarding will offer insights for fans, retailers, and creators alike.
As we progress, we'll also touch upon the skateboarding techniques that thrive alongside this accessory's popularity. Understanding these intersections makes for a more profound appreciation in a culture that values individuality and expression. This deep dive will ultimately reveal the often-overlooked significance of beanies—not merely as a trend but as a cultural staple that continues to evolve along with the sport itself.
Intro to Beanies
Beanies have become a staple in the wardrobe of many skateboarders, transcendin’ mere fashion to embody a significant aspect of the culture itself. Their importance lies not just in how they look but in what they represent: individuality, functionality, and a deep-rooted connection to urban lifestyles. As skateboarding has evolved over the decades, so too has the role of the beanie, adapting to the shifting sands of style and practicality.
Understanding the nuances of beanies in skateboarding begins with an appreciation of their varied materials, fits, and styles. Factors such as comfort in motion and the ability to shield against weather elements make beanies beneficial for skaters who spend hours on the board. For young skateboarders especially, a beanie serves as a blank canvas for self-expression, a way to convey their unique aesthetic within the skate community.
Definition and Origins
The term "beanie" describes a snug-fitting, often knitted headwear that primarily provides warmth. Its history dates back to the 19th century, originally known as a "watch cap" or "knitted cap." Beanies’ first public appearance can be traced to the working class, often worn by fishermen and laborers to ward off the chilly seas. However, their journey into skateboarding culture began in California during the rise of skateboarding in the 1970s. Skaters started adopting the beanie for practical reasons, such as keeping hair out of the face and providing an extra layer against the elements. Over time, the beanie morphed into a symbol of authenticity, embraced by the counter-culture movements alongside punk and hip-hop.
Beanies in Popular Culture
Beanies have infiltrated various aspects of popular culture, becoming iconic through music, sports, and art. In hip-hop, artists like Kid Cudi and A$AP Rocky have sported beanies, amplifying their status in mainstream fashion. Similarly, they have appeared in films and shows showcasing skateboarding, like "Lords of Dogtown," cementing their connection with skate culture.
The beanie transcends generations, showing up in music festivals, urban settings, and streetwear brands, while fashion designers and retailers have acknowledged its significance by including beanie lines in their seasonal collections. The visually striking and often colorful designs have led to collaborations with skate brands, making them a must-have accessory for any skateboarder or fashion enthusiast.
"Beanies aren’t just an accessory; they are a badge of belonging in the skateboard scene. They signify creativity and defiance against the mainstream, representing who you are on and off the board."
In summary, the introduction of beanies in skateboarding culture goes beyond their functionality. They are woven into the socio-cultural fabric of urban life, echoing the values of freedom and individual expression that define the skateboarding experience.
Historical Context of Beanies
The historical context of beanies is crucial to understanding their integral role in skateboarding culture. By exploring their origins and how they began to weave themselves into the fabric of various subcultures, we can appreciate the values they represent—individuality, rebellion, and a certain utilitarian style. Beanies are more than mere fashion statements for skateboarders; they embody a communal identity that transcends mere aesthetics and dives deep into the psyche of urban youth culture.
Early Adoption in Various Subcultures
The beanie has a rich history that predates its entry into the skateboarding sphere. Historically, it has been associated with a variety of subcultures, notably the working-class movements and later niches like punk and hip-hop. In the early 20th century, laborers often wore such warm caps to fend off the cold while they toiled outdoors.
As the decades turned, various groups adopted the beanie as a symbol of their respective cultures. The beatniks of the 1950s, for instance, embraced the beanie as an emblem of their nonconformity and artistic expression. Subsequently, the punk movement grabbed ahold of it as a way to reject the mainstream sartorial norms.
The adaptability of this simple garment ensured its survival across different scenes. A notable diversion occurred as the anti-establishment vibe resonated with skate culture. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, skaters began donning beanies, not just for warmth but for their ability to embody a carefree attitude—a must-have accessory for anyone carving concrete parks and streets.
Adopting this form of headwear was not just a matter of practical utility but also a rebellion against the growing commercialization of skateboarding during the 1980s. Many young skaters gravitated towards beanies to assert their identity, cultivating a sense of belonging that aligned with skate culture's roots.
Rise of the Skateboarding Scene
The rise of the skateboarding scene in the 1980s catalyzed the beanie's presence in mainstream youth culture. The introduction of iconic skateboard brands and the emergence of legendary skateboarders turned skateboarding into a phenomenon. It wasn't merely about tricks anymore; it was also about style and attitude.
During this time, beanies were often worn in a relaxed fashion—a visible representation of the carefree lifestyle associated with skating. Skaters started using beanies not only as protective gear for falls but also to boost their unique looks. With every generation of skaters, the styles and variations of beanies evolved, reflecting current fashion trends while remaining rooted in their streetwear origins.
Also, the skate community began attracting attention from broader cultural spheres, such as music, art, and fashion. The partnerships between skate brands and renowned designers or influencers helped propel the beanie from a subcultural accessory to a staple in urban wardrobes. Skateboarding's influence extended to fashion runways, a testament to its deep cultural impact.
"Beanies are not just a fashion item; they are a canvas for self-expression, a protective shield against the elements, and, above all, a badge of honor within the skate community."
As beanies became more entrenched in skateboarding culture, they also began to reflect broader social trends, signaling acceptance and individual expression. This dual functionality of style and utility made them indispensable for skateboarders, solidifying their relevance in a scene that continues to evolve.
Beanie Styles and Variations
The world of beanies is as colorful and diverse as the skateboarding community itself. This section hones in on the various styles of beanies, which play an essential role in uniting fashion with function. Understanding the different kinds of beanies not only helps skateboarders choose the right one for their needs but also allows them to express their personal style and stand out in a crowd. Let’s break down some of the most popular styles and variations and explore how they contribute to the skateboarding culture.
Different Types of Beanies
Slouchy Beanies
Slouchy beanies are known for their relaxed fit and casual vibe. These beanies often feature a longer, extra fabric that hangs loosely at the back, creating a laid-back appearance. One of the primary advantages of slouchy beanies is their versatility; they can be worn in various ways to match different outfits or moods. For skateboarders, this style provides a unique opportunity to showcase individuality.
The key characteristic of slouchy beanies is their comfortable, non-constricting fit. This allows for a perfect blend of style and functionality, as skaters can focus on their tricks without worrying about their headgear slipping off. However, when it comes to performance-oriented skateboarding, the casual aesthetics of slouchy beanies may not impress everyone, as they might lack the snugness that some prefer when hitting hardcore spots.
Cuffed Beanies
Cuffed beanies stand out for their distinctive folded brim that hugs the head snugly. This style has gained immense popularity within the skateboarding scene, especially due to its classic look and snug fit. When you need a beanie that stays put throughout vigorous movement, cuffed beanies are the go-to choice. They're often made from a thicker material, which provides better warmth in cooler climates.
The defining feature of cuffed beanies is their cozy, fitted nature. This means skateboarders can tackle trick after trick without distraction, knowing their headwear is secure. However, some might find cuffed beanies a bit tight, particularly on long skating sessions. It's all about finding the right balance between comfort and security, and cuffed styles often hit the nail on the head.
Beanies with Embellishments
Beanies with embellishments cater to those who seek something beyond the standard styles. Featuring patches, pins, or even patterns, these beanies allow skateboarders to showcase their interests and affiliations. The decorative elements give wearers a way to express their identities and connect with like-minded individuals in the scene.
The special feature that sets embellished beanies apart is their ability to elevate otherwise straightforward outfits. The right embellishment can add a personal touch that transforms the beanie into a statement piece. However, potential drawbacks include durability issues, as too many embellishments might lead to wear and tear over time, especially in the rugged skateboarding environment.
Color and Pattern Trends
When it comes to color and pattern trends in beanies, the choices are as varied as a skateboarder's style on the board. The right color can communicate a lot about a skateboarder’s personality and could even be a nod to certain skate brands or movements.
Popular color choices include deep hues and earth tones, which resonate well with urban settings, while vibrant colors can project a lively, adventurous spirit. Patterns such as stripes, checks, or even custom designs reflect personal creativity, making each piece unique.
Skateboarders might opt for unconventional patterns or colors not only to express individuality but also to make a mark within their community. Exploring these trends allows for a deeper insight into the culture itself.
"A beanie isn’t just clothing; it’s a canvas that reflects who you are and where you ride."
In summary, the variety found in beanie styles and colors enhances the skateboarding experience by offering functional benefits and avenues for personal expression. Whether it’s slouchy, cuffed, or adorned with uniqueness, the right beanie is more than just a trendy accessory in skate culture—it’s an extension of identity.
Functional Aspects of Beanies
Beanies aren't just a fashion statement for skateboarders; they serve crucial functional purposes that enhance the skateboarding experience. Understanding how these caps contribute to comfort and protection can significantly inform a skateboarder’s choice in headwear.
Protection from Elements
In the world of skating, riders often find themselves battling the elements. Whether it’s the crisp bite of winter or the unforgiving glare of the summer sun, beanies offer a protective barrier.
A well-chosen beanie can keep you warm during those frigid evening sessions, retaining body heat while you pull off tricks. Made from materials like acrylic or wool, they insulate against cold winds that whip through urban streets. Imagine this: you’ve just landed a complex trick, but the bitter chill makes you second-guess your next move. That’s the difference a beanie can make, keeping your focus on the board, not on your freezing ears.
Conversely, in warmer weather, a lightweight, breathable beanie can offer sun protection for your scalp. The last thing a skateboarder needs is to feel the burn of the sun while trying to master their moves. Even if skateboarding is all about style and swagger, the importance of skin safety cannot be understated.
For some, customizations are more than aesthetic—they're about performance. Some brands even produce beanies with built-in UV protection or moisture-wicking fabrics. Skateboarders can enjoy both practicality and flair, allowing them to express individuality while safeguarding themselves.
Comfort and Fit while Skating
Comfort is key in any sport, and skateboarding is no exception. A beanie should fit snugly but never so tight that it feels like a tourniquet; the best beanies provide a balance of warmth and breathability. Consider this: you’re mid-air, twisting and turning, and the last thing you want is a beanie slipping down over your eyes. A proper fit allows maximum movement without distractions, keeping the focus where it belongs—on the ride.
A lot of skateboarders prefer slouchy styles, letting their beanies drape just enough to encourage airflow while providing warmth without overheating. The right beanie stays on during jumps and tricks, absorbing sweat and providing comfort.
When searching for that perfect beanie, consider those with adjustable features or different materials that accommodate varying head sizes and shapes. Materials like spandex can offer that added elasticity, ensuring a fit that adapts seamlessly to the wearer.
"Comfort is not luxury; it's a necessity for performance on the board. A beanie should feel like a second skin, not a burden."
Just as skateboarders find their groove in tricks and technique, the right beanie can enhance their overall experience. It is a simple accessory with profound implications, proving that functionality and style are not mutually exclusive.
Cultural Significance of Beanies
Beanies are much more than just pieces of fabric stitched together. In the world of skateboarding, they carry layers of meaning, serving as a vital avenue for self-expression and identity among skaters. The cultural significance of beanies in skateboarding culture can be unraveled through various lenses, including personal expression, social status, and the formation of community ties. As skateboarders navigate urban environments, these headwear pieces become not just fashion statements but also reflections of the skateboarder’s ethos.
Expression of Identity
For many skateboarders, wearing a beanie is akin to wearing a badge of honor. It’s a statement of individuality in a culture that values freedom and creativity. Beanies can symbolize a skater’s identity, with individual styles often reflecting personal beliefs, tastes, and even alliances within the skateboarding community. Different beanie styles may carry different connotations, ranging from the laid-back vibes of a slouchy beanie to the more structured look of a cuffed beanie.
- Identity Through Style: Choosing a specific beanie style can be a reflection of a skater's aesthetic preferences or even their skating style. For instance, a professional street skater may opt for a minimalistic black cuffed beanie, suggesting a serious approach, whereas a skater who enjoys tricks and showing off might choose a brighter color or a beanie with patterns.
- Subculture Representation: Beyond personal identity, beanies can also represent broader subcultures or movements within skateboarding. They might connect skaters to certain brands or skate crews, which often promote a unique lifestyle. For instance, if a skater wears a beanie from a specific brand like Thrasher, it could indicate that they subscribe to the brand’s culture and community ethos.
Social Perception and Stereotypes
The social perception of beanies in skateboarding often oscillates between admiration and skepticism. On one hand, they are a celebrated accessory of skateboard culture; on the other, they can sometimes be stereotyped as symbols of casual or rebellious attitudes. This duality affects the way skateboarders are viewed by the general public.
- Challenging Norms: Some might see a beanie-clad skateboarder as a person defying norms—a free spirit who rejects mainstream fashion. This stereotype, while sometimes positive, can also carry negative implications, where skateboarders are unfairly categorized as troublemakers or delinquents.
- Navigating Through Perceptions: As skateboarding gains mainstream acceptance, the social perception of beanies is evolving. Now, one might find beanies worn by not just skateboarders, but also people in urban cultures, further complicating the stereotypes associated with them. As a result, skateboarders sometimes have to navigate these preconceived notions while defining their unique style within a larger urban fashion context.
Beanies and Skateboarding Performance
Beanies serve more than just a fashionable accessory in the realm of skateboarding; they have a tangible impact on performance. Whether a skater is hitting the half-pipe or gliding through city streets, the right beanie can affect both their technique and overall skateboarding style. Understanding this aspect can help skaters make informed choices that enhance their rides.
Influence on Technique and Style
The choice of beanie can influence a skater's technique in subtle but significant ways. A snug, well-fitted beanie can help in several areas:
- Aerodynamics: Loose hats can catch wind, potentially interrupting a skater's balance during high-speed tricks. A fitted beanie minimizes drag, allowing for smoother descents and cleaner executions in flips and spins.
- Visibility: Some skaters prefer beanies that keep hair and stray strands out of their eyes. This can aid concentration, allowing for more precise control over maneuvers and tricks.
- Personal Aesthetic: The style of a beanie can also serve to express a skater’s identity, influencing how they carry themselves on the board. A certain color or flair in design might inspire confidence or creativity in execution.
It's not all about looks and comfort; the technical specifications of beanies, such as thickness and material, can also affect performance. Warmer fabrics on cold days can help skaters stay focused on their skills rather than on chilling temperatures.
Feedback from Professional Skateboarders
Professional skateboarders tend to have strong opinions regarding what aids or hinders their performance. Many express that the choice of headwear can greatly affect their concentration and mental state. Some thoughts from the pros include the following:
"Wearing a beanie makes me feel like I'm part of the skateboarding family. It’s a small thing, but it keeps me grounded, no matter how high I fly on my board."
- Comfort and Security: Many skaters note that a fitted beanie can feel like a second skin, providing comfort that allows them to focus. The feeling of security can empower a skater to push their limits.
- Functionality: Some professional riders emphasize that the functionality of a beanie can boost performance. A beanie that absorbs sweat can prevent slip-ups on hot days. For instance, pro skater Nyjah Huston has spoken about how a high-quality beanie helps him keep his cool during intense competitions.
- Deciding Factors: When prepping for important rides or competitions, professionals often weigh factors such as style, fit, and brand reputation.
Incorporating these insights from the pros helps shed light on the multifaceted relationship between beanies and skateboarding performance. Skaters come to find that their choice of apparel doesn't just reflect their style but can play a pivotal role in the way they execute their tricks and present themselves in the community.
Beanies within the Skate Community
Beanies hold a significant place in the skate community, serving not just as a stylish accessory but also as a badge of identity and connection among skateboarders. Their critical role goes beyond mere fashion; they symbolize a sense of belonging and contribution to a lifestyle that's both inclusive and vibrant. The relationship between skaters and their beanies is multi-faceted, encompassing collaborations with brands that empower culture, as well as their presence at local skate events where they become an integral part of the scene.
Collaboration with Skate Brands
The collaboration between beanie makers and skate brands illustrates the convergence of creativity and functional design. Brands such as Element and Baker have harnessed this relationship, using beanies as a canvas for self-expression and artistry. When skateboard brands work with artists or elements of street culture, they often produce limited-edition beanies that resonate with the community. These partnerships frequently result in unique designs that are not only visually appealing but also crafted specifically to meet the needs of skaters.
The benefits of such collaborations extend beyond aesthetics. Skate brands understand the importance of form and function in any piece of gear, which is why many beanies are crafted to be both durable and breathable. For instance, a collaboration between Anti-Hero and a well-known artist may yield a series of beanies that are not only stylish but also perform well during intense skating sessions.
In addition to design, the cultural significance of these collaborations cannot be understated. They often create a sense of exclusivity and foster a community of devoted fans who feel connected through their unique tastes. With every limited-run release, a shared excitement builds up, driving skaters to compete for the chance to own a piece of cultural relevance.
Local Skate Events and Beanies
Beanies also take center stage at local skate events, where they often symbolize unity and support within the community. Such gatherings can range from informal meet-ups at local parks to organized competitions. At these events, beanies are worn not just as a trend, but also as a connection to fellow skaters. The vibe of these events enhances the sense of camaraderie among participants; it's common to see a sea of colorful beanies that showcase different styles and personalities.
"At every local competition I attend, the best moments are watching groups of skaters, beanies perched atop their heads while they cheer each other on. It's more than just a piece of cloth; it's identity and community in action.”
Skate events often act as platforms for emerging brands to showcase their beanies, thus providing opportunities for local businesses to gain traction. These small brands can personalize their designs, making them relevant to the skater lifestyle, which might not be possible for larger corporations. New skaters and veterans alike feel drawn to these homemade styles, celebrating diversity and innovation.
Sustainability and Ethical Production
In recent years, the conversation around sustainability and ethical production has gained momentum across various industries, including skateboarding. The integration of environmentally friendly practices in beanie production represents not just a trend but a necessary shift in mindset for both manufacturers and consumers. As skate culture thrives in urban settings, skateboarders increasingly prefer products made with care for the planet and social responsibility. These elements not only impact the environment positively but also reflect the values that underlie the skate community.
Sourcing Materials Responsibly
When we talk about sustainability in beanie production, the sourcing of materials is paramount. Skateboard brands often face the dilemma of balancing aesthetics with eco-friendliness. Natural fibers like organic cotton or recycled polyester are frequently seen as favorable alternatives to conventional textiles, as they have a lower environmental footprint.
Yet, it's not just about choosing the right material; transparency in the supply chain is essential. Brands that openly share their sourcing stories often gain loyalty from consumers who prioritize ethical consumption. For instance, many local skate shops might never use synthetic dyes, opting instead for plant-based alternatives that reduce chemical runoff.
"The choices we make when sourcing materials show how much we care about our world; skateboarding should not harm the very streets we ride on."
One alternative that has surfaced is the revival of hemp-based fibers. Hemp is known for its durability and lower water usage compared to traditional crops. This shift not only promotes sustainable agriculture but also aligns with the rugged lifestyle of skateboarding culture, where durability is celebrated.
Impact on Urban Environments
The implications of ethical production extend far beyond the beanies themselves and into the broader context of urban environments. Skateboarding often exists in spaces that are ripe for transformation—abandoned warehouses, empty lots, and neglected parks. Brands that commit to sustainability are contributing positively to these locales by creating products that do not add unnecessary waste.
Moreover, sustainable beanies can take part in environmental initiatives. Many brands donate a portion of their profits to urban greening projects or anti-pollution campaigns. This not only helps to foster a sense of community among skateboarders but also reaffirms their commitment to preserving the streets they're passionate about.
There are several initiatives aiming to connect skate culture with better environmental practices:
- Reusable Packaging: Many brands are now packaging their products using 100% recycled materials.
- Community Clean-Up Events: Some companies organize events where skateboarders engage in cleaning up their local parks and skate spots.
- Collaboration with Eco-Friendly Organizations: Partnering with groups focused on urban sustainability amplifies the message, fostering a larger movement within a community that values both style and substance.
Future Trends in Beanie Fashion
As skateboarding culture continues to evolve, so does the fashion surrounding it. Beanies, once a simple headwear choice, are now taking on new shapes, styles, and functions within the skate community. Understanding the future trends in beanie fashion is crucial, not only for skateboarders but also for retailers and content creators in this sphere. This ongoing shift reflects broader societal changes, technological innovations, and shifting aesthetics. Here, we delve into emerging styles and innovations while considering how technology may redefine our experience with beanies in the future.
Emerging Styles and Innovations
The landscape of beanie fashion is ever-changing. In recent years, we've observed a significant movement towards personalized designs and sustainable materials. Skateboarders increasingly seek individuality through their gear—a beanie isn't just an accessory but a canvas for self-expression. From hand-knitted items to those adorned with unique prints and patterns, customizability has become a trend in its own right.
Here are some of the most interesting styles set to make waves in the coming years:
- Minimalist Designs: With the rise of minimalism in fashion, many skaters are gravitating towards simple, monochromatic styles that prioritize quality over quantity.
- Local Art Collaborations: Beanies showcasing local artists’ work reflect a pride in community and regional identities, allowing skaters to feel more connected to their roots.
- Mixed Materials: Beanies that blend traditional fabrics with modern textiles, like modal or Tencel, cater to both style and functionality.
In a market saturated with generic products, these innovations not only elevate personal style but also make a statement about consumer choices and sustainability.
Integration of Technology
As we step further into the digital age, the integration of technology into fashion is becoming ever more prominent. Beanies are no exception to this trend, and many skateboarders are already enjoying these advancements. The incorporation of smart textiles offers a glimpse into what future headwear might look like.
- Smart Beanies: Imagine a beanie with integrated headphones or sound systems, allowing skaters to listen to music seamlessly while riding. This tech not only enhances the skating experience but also creates an opportunity for brands to provide added value to customers.
- Weather-Sensitive Fabrics: Future beanies may incorporate materials that respond to temperature changes, providing warmth when it's cold and breathability when it’s warmer—a bid for comfort that every skater would appreciate.
- Augmented Reality Features: Envision a future where your beanie can display advice from professional skaters or even share styling tips through an app, connecting users within the skate community in unprecedented ways.
The intersection between fashion and technology is still fundamentally about enhancing the experience of skateboarding, pushing the boundaries of how beanies serve not just as accessories but as integral parts of a skater’s toolkit.
"Future beanies will redefine not just what we wear, but how we interact with our environment and each other."
These trends reflect a deepening connection between personal identity, community pride, and technological advancement. Keeping an eye on these developments ensures that skaters and consumers can ride the waves of change with both style and purpose.
Closure and Reflections
As we draw this comprehensive exploration of beanies in skateboarding culture to a close, it becomes evident that these seemingly simple pieces of headwear pack a significant punch in terms of cultural resonance, identity expression, and practical utility. The narrative of beanies in this scene transcends their traditional definitions. They serve as a canvas for individuality, a subtle nod to belonging within the skate community, and a practical accessory that functions well in the urban environment.
The Ongoing Importance of Beanies
Beanies have long become a staple in the skateboarding wardrobe, but their role extends beyond mere practicality. Many skateboarders see them as symbols of rebellion and creativity. Rather than just protecting against the elements, they create a visual statement that reflects a skateboarder's personality and lifestyle.
In the vibrant world of skateboarding, beanies are often used to break from mainstream fashion. Earlier, they were often associated with a laid-back, anti-establishment vibe, but as skate culture has grown, so too has the variety of beanies available. Be it the slouchy look or a more structured design, there’s a beanie for every skater's ethos.
"To wear a beanie in skate culture is more than just fashion; it’s a nod to the street art of life, helping shape the identity of those who embrace it."
Inviting Future Dialogue
Looking ahead, the conversation around beanies in skateboarding culture must continue to evolve. Retailers and creators alike should engage skateboarders in discussions about their preferences and needs surrounding beanie designs, materials, and functionality. Given the push towards sustainability in other fashion sectors, it wouldn’t hurt for the skate community to be vocal about seeking ethical production methods that align with their identity.
Future trends may dictate that interaction with technology doesn't just belong to skateboards alone; imagine smart beanies equipped with features like LED lights for safety while skating at night. Overall, it's crucial that the skateboarding community—the skateboarders, the brands, and the enthusiasts—keep the dialogue flowing. What does the future hold for beanies? Only time and ongoing conversation will tell.
